asakiyume: (more than two)
[personal profile] asakiyume
I was listening to a talk the other day, and the speaker was talking about how she preferred "yes, and" phrases to "no, but" phrases when talking about someone's ideas.

In general I favor this approach too. Conversation that builds up rather than breaking down is energizing and encouraging. But you can't only use "yes, and." Sometimes you want to disagree or criticize. The speaker seemed to think that even in those situation you could/should cast what you're saying as a "yes, and." The example that came up was the speaker's criticism of the Black Panther movie. She was saying that she loves it, that it's great, but that it has problems--among them, it holds up a model of a single important person, a king, who makes all decisions. But unlike me in the previous sentence, she didn't phrase this using "but." She used "and." ("It's a great movie...and it has this problem")

You can do that, but changing the conjunction doesn't really change the valence of what you're saying. Why not just acknowledge the criticism by starting what you say next with a "but"? Sometimes it's fine to criticize! Furthermore, criticism doesn't have to be destructive--as the speaker herself was showing. She clearly did like the movie.

Maybe what would satisfy both her desire to stay positive and my desire to own the criticism is "yes, but." Yes, I agree/like this, but I have a refinement or criticism to add.

Hey, and then there's also "No, and," which is even more negative than "No, but," right? Like with "No, but," you're saying no, but you're also saying "but," which means there's some point of commonality, whereas with "No, and," you're going to town with your criticisms--you've got more than one!

Wohoo, I think we can do a business-article-style four-quadrant graph:


OMG my dayjob is invading my journaling...

Date: 2019-01-24 07:10 pm (UTC)
sovay: (Rotwang)
From: [personal profile] sovay
Wohoo, I think we can do a business-article-style four-quadrant graph

I like the implications of "No, but" as a form of criticism: there are problems here, but here's the good stuff.

Date: 2019-01-24 07:23 pm (UTC)
sovay: (Rotwang)
From: [personal profile] sovay
it's almost as positive as "yes, and," maybe more so in some cases, because it shows a willingness to reach beyond difference, whereas "yes, and" implies unity of thinking.

I like that a lot.

Date: 2019-01-24 07:47 pm (UTC)
st_martin_a: (Default)
From: [personal profile] st_martin_a
I'm with you on using 'but'.
I like being positive too but 'and' doesn't always work.
:/

Date: 2019-01-24 08:24 pm (UTC)
sartorias: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sartorias
Interesting discussion, though I find that tone of voice supersedes conjunctions. Maybe even yes or no.

Date: 2019-01-24 09:22 pm (UTC)
sartorias: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sartorias
Yes! That is especially true in sales scams and the like. No matter what you say, they'll smile and burble something cheerful then blow over your words entirely "Yes, my heart's desire is to ride a bicycle to the moon!") and tell you what they want you to hear.

Date: 2019-01-25 02:08 am (UTC)
randomdreams: riding up mini slickrock (Default)
From: [personal profile] randomdreams
I don't even know if that's a false socratic method. He pretty definitely used it to convince people, not to just show them how to analyze.

Date: 2019-01-25 03:30 am (UTC)
randomdreams: riding up mini slickrock (Default)
From: [personal profile] randomdreams
The best propaganda is disguised as self-help, right?

Date: 2019-01-25 01:46 pm (UTC)
amaebi: black fox (Default)
From: [personal profile] amaebi
He may be a Mensch, but he's not the kind of Mensch he's typically sold as.

Date: 2019-01-25 01:45 pm (UTC)
amaebi: black fox (Default)
From: [personal profile] amaebi
I was so disappointed when I first read some of the dialogues and found out how he cheats.

Date: 2019-01-25 02:32 am (UTC)
ladyherenya: (Default)
From: [personal profile] ladyherenya
The "false Socratic method" sounds like what I've heard referred to as "guess what's in my head" questions. (This came up in the context of things teachers shouldn't do.)

Date: 2019-01-25 01:44 pm (UTC)
amaebi: black fox (Default)
From: [personal profile] amaebi
So yes this.

Date: 2019-01-24 11:15 pm (UTC)
minoanmiss: Theran girl gathering saffron (Saffron-Gatherer)
From: [personal profile] minoanmiss
*reads and contemplates*

(I think that's kind of a specious criticism of Black Panther -- why is it worse/suddenly notable that BP has a monarchy than Wonder Woman or Aquaman or The Inhumans or every Disney movie or any other fictional property based around a monarchal society?)

Date: 2019-01-25 12:28 am (UTC)
minoanmiss: (Default)
From: [personal profile] minoanmiss

Oh, good. :)

Date: 2019-01-25 01:47 pm (UTC)
amaebi: black fox (Default)
From: [personal profile] amaebi
Or for that matter: why in the name of heaven should every literary/filmic work depict Someone's Ideal Society?

Date: 2019-01-25 11:02 pm (UTC)
amaebi: black fox (Default)
From: [personal profile] amaebi
Ah, thanks. No, I wouldn't imagine that. :D

Date: 2019-01-25 02:28 am (UTC)
ladyherenya: (Default)
From: [personal profile] ladyherenya
I can see how "Yes, and" would be helpful during brainstorming-type discussions, when you're just throwing ideas out there and being too critical too early can hinder creativity and participation. ("Yes, or" would be another option).

But lots of discussions are robust enough to deal with criticism! Especially if people don't need to reach any sort of consensus, if you're discussing opinions of a story rather than trying to make progress on a team project, for example.

Date: 2019-01-25 03:06 am (UTC)
zyzyly: (Default)
From: [personal profile] zyzyly
Let's not forget just plain "nope".

Date: 2019-01-25 01:36 pm (UTC)
amaebi: black fox (Default)
From: [personal profile] amaebi
I think that a fundamental behind all this is that humans are currently treating conversations as contests.

Date: 2019-01-25 11:02 pm (UTC)
amaebi: black fox (Default)
From: [personal profile] amaebi
Long may it wave, she said morosely.

Date: 2019-01-25 04:38 pm (UTC)
missroserose: (Default)
From: [personal profile] missroserose
Just FYI, if you post this to Tumblr I will hit the reblog button so fast it may cause a sonic boom. ;)

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