correctness in language

[asakiyume]

I've been really impressed by an online Spanish program I've been working through via a local community college. It's called "Speed Spanish," and I get the impression it's been around for a while. I like it. I'm into Speed Spanish III now, and the creator of the program, Dan Mikels, has said some things that impressed me so much I've been sharing them all over the place (as missroserose can attest to). AND NOW I SHALL SHARE THEM HERE.

In any language, there are certain things that are extra difficult for learners to master. People can teach you rules and exceptions, or give you examples, but if it's not your native language, you'll have trouble. Dan was going over one of those and trying to reassure students that it doesn't really matter that much if you make a mistake. He said this:

All spontaneous speech, no matter the language, is sloppy ... From the university professor who teaches speech courses, to the person who's had no formal education—all spontaneous speech is sloppy. It doesn't matter who you are. Shouldn't you avoid this sloppiness? It's impossible in spontaneous speech.

And earlier, he points out the political underpinnings to what's considered "correct" in a language and says,

Whenever I'm puzzling over whether a particular sentence pattern is used in a particular language, I do what I can to find a native speaker with the least amount of education. I want to find the language speaker who can be more descriptive and less prescriptive. I want to know what is and not what should be.

On the other hand, it's true that speaking the lingo of the elite confers advantages (and not knowing it can shut doors). That's why people want to learn it! And that's why people get to have power trips being sticklers for grammatical niceties, or pronunciation.

... My brain just clocked off, so this post is going to come to an abrupt end. Maybe in the morning I can add to it!

Annnnd.... now the meter on my brain has run out. More another day I guess?

Comments

[shewhomust]

It's true that there's a difference between what is grammatically incorrect, and what no native speaker would ever say, what gives you away as a foreigner...

Re. your other hand, a friend, now retired, taught English in a deprived area of England, and woeked constantly to help her pupils speak the sort of correct language which is required in job interviews. But some of the 'awful mistakes' she told me about were perfectly correct dialect variants.

I don't know where I'm going with these thoughts...

[asakiyume]

You're doing like me--surveying the landscape of language!

At the jail, I want to assiduously stress to my students that the way they speak isn't "wrong," and that writing as they speak is absolutely right--very desirable in fact--for certain things (poetry, memoir, novels that want to be true to a situation, etc). I want to acknowledge that there's no fairness about the fact that they have to learn a whole lot of little tricks and rules in writing if they're going to successfully handle other situations (college essays, job applications) order to get ahead, BUT THAT I'M THERE TO HELP THEM DO EXACTLY THAT.

[amaebi]

I love you.

[asakiyume]

I've got ... I don't know what to call it. It's not self-hate, but maybe self-disappointment? Or depressing self-realization? It makes me feel unworthy, whatever it is--even of lovely statements like this. And then I remember that love isn't earned, it's a gift.

And thinking that, I can say in all sincerity, Thank you! And quite apart from that, I love you too.

[shewhomust]

Yes: different registers for different situations. Mostly we do it without thinking about it, which is why it's so hard to learn.

[amaebi]

But who will give up the opportunity to critique another's diction, as a stick to beat them? (And of course to establish one's proper Judgehood.)

[asakiyume]

I think people **do** give up that stick. All the time, there are people whose impressions are changing and who don't do that stuff anymore. ... It's just that there seems to be no shortage of others to carry on....

[amaebi]

People choose all the time not to use that stick. Even chronic stick-users typically lay it aside when talking with and about allies.

But an awful lot of people like to have it handy-- whether it denigrates "improper grammar" or "fake highfalutin' jaw."

[cmcmck]

I find that with the languages I know other than English (in my case, French and Italian) people are pleased that you make the effort so are pretty forgiving on the grammar front! :o)

[asakiyume]

Yes, that's been my experience too!

[st_martin_a]

Intento aprender espanol tambien.
Para tres anos intente mucho pero recientemente me he vuelto perezoso.

[asakiyume]

Mi problema es que no hay oportunidades para hablar. Soy voluntario como estudiantes latinos pero ellos necesitan practicar inglés....

[st_martin_a]

Lol.
Tengo amigos de Venezuela en mi iglesia. Tres familias. Es muy util pero solamente una ves a la semana.
Fue a una meetup grupo en una bar pero recientamente no mucho personas van.
Fui obsesivo pero es dificil mantenerlo.
(Forgive my errors)

[asakiyume]

Si tiene erores, a mi no me puedo verlos!

We do what we can--I think what we all need is more travel time ;-)

[petrichor_pirate]

Whenever we have arguments about words and grammar, I like to torment my English-teacher friend by bringing up that language is based on common usage. I generally start off with, "from a linguistics point of view..." I'm pretty sure he keeps me around partially *because* I make those arguments though.

[asakiyume]

LOL; that's great.

When people ask me what's right, I ask them who their audience is and what the purpose of their writing is.